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Old Jun 18, 2009, 04:29 AM // 04:29   #81
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Kendel, stop being a fanboy, and stop with the attitude. Seriously, you're posts aren't as smart as you think they are.

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Originally Posted by Kendel View Post
Sorry have you never played PvE?

Mob vs Enchantments = ooo enchantments *casts Shatter Enchantment immediately*That is fact, any caster with enchantment removal in PvE will almost certainly cast it the instant they see an enchantment, not 10 seconds into the fight. Hell if your petrified of enchantment removal on your Crits, cast them AFTER you've agroed.
Enchantment removal has non-infinite recharge. Tough fights can last several minutes. For example, Vloxen HM. No matter how much you theorycraft, enchantment removal is going to be a problem for you. If you disagree, please post a video of your MS/DB sin going through vloxen H/H. There was an earlier thread of a warrior going through. I highly doubt a non-perma sin can go through as easily.

Let's also not forget, what you are describing, you have to WAIT before engaging a mob (e.g., draw out their enchantment removal). This is pretty bad on it's own.


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This thread is about maintainable DPS, not, maintainable DPS while in a massive enchantment removal zone, or maintainable DPS while tanking 2 Warden mobs in Urgoz.
This thread is about realistic DPS. "Maintainable" DPS does not mean anything, except in the sense of Master of Damage.

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Your average fight in HM does not need them to endure massive damage because they blocked they had to block the entire mob. If you wanna get picky, Sin can run Assassins Remedy, therefore while the Warrior is complaining at his monks for not curing him of Blind the Sin is killing things. Or perhaps the Dervish has the highest dps because while the other 2 are complaining about Blurred Vision and other slow hexes, the Dwayna Derv is happily removing them with every attack.
Any physical heavy team will carry strong hex/condition removal. Devoting a slot on your sin to condition removal (or hex removal) is a pretty bad idea, especially when things like FF are available.

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And more to the point... what utils? Since anything from Tactics that actually helps allies has been nerfed into the ground that leaves you with Save Yourselves and ANYONE not using a secondary can run.
Utils = shutdown, party defenses... anything non-damage. For example, knocklock with either ES or BH. SY! spamming with DSlash. Sure you can run SY! on your MS/DB sin, but it's not as easy to keep up as it is with Godmode war.
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Old Jun 18, 2009, 05:03 AM // 05:03   #82
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Kendel, stop being a fanboy, and stop with the attitude. Seriously, you're posts aren't as smart as you think they are.
Thats funny i was thinking the same thing about you.

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Enchantment removal has non-infinite recharge. Tough fights can last several minutes. For example, Vloxen HM. No matter how much you theorycraft, enchantment removal is going to be a problem for you. If you disagree, please post a video of your MS/DB sin going through vloxen H/H. There was an earlier thread of a warrior going through. I highly doubt a non-perma sin can go through as easily.
Wtf has Vloxen got to do with the other 99.9% of the game? If you think bringing up the Slavers Summit mobs is going to give your arguement some weight theres something wrong with you.

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Let's also not forget, what you are describing, you have to WAIT before engaging a mob (e.g., draw out their enchantment removal). This is pretty bad on it's own.
Because its totally not possible to send in your MM first, something that is advisable on any melee profession if your wanting to avoid a surge of anti-melee. Or of course get a couple of cover enchantments while your running in and they get removed. You sound like some leeroy noob who rushes in and blames his Monk when he dies, Warrior armour is not that good vs HM foes.

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This thread is about realistic DPS. "Maintainable" DPS does not mean anything, except in the sense of Master of Damage.
Yes, the DPS is realistic in 99.9% of non-elite areas. That or i've been playing the wrong game and in reality every mob packs Rend Enchantments... quite sure they don't though.

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Any physical heavy team will carry strong hex/condition removal. Devoting a slot on your sin to condition removal (or hex removal) is a pretty bad idea, especially when things like FF are available.
Whats that got to do with anything?

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Utils = shutdown, party defenses... anything non-damage. For example, knocklock with either ES or BH. SY! spamming with DSlash. Sure you can run SY! on your MS/DB sin, but it's not as easy to keep up as it is with Godmode war.
ES? BH? What? Aside from a few rather useless skills only Hammer can knockdown without requiring the target to be moving. Sadly Hammer is a little pointless outside of running it for a laugh because Great Dwarf Weapon causes more knockdown that you could ever want and theres YMLAD for an on demand KD. As for SY, its 8 adren, high rank it lasts 6 seconds. A sin should just about be able to maintain that indefinately assuming his target doesn't die (which they do, shock horror), it doesn't need to be recast every 2 seconds. You have absolutely no point there.
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Old Jun 18, 2009, 07:42 AM // 07:42   #83
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Originally Posted by Kendel View Post
ES? BH? What? Aside from a few rather useless skills only Hammer can knockdown without requiring the target to be moving. Sadly Hammer is a little pointless outside of running it for a laugh because Great Dwarf Weapon causes more knockdown that you could ever want and theres YMLAD for an on demand KD.
Not really.

Earth Shaker is able to mantain a full mob KDed (While GDW only KDs 1 target). And Brawling Headbutt is a KD almost every 3 seconds. (If you want to quarterknock a target).

GDW is better as damage buff, not as KD-system. % chance to KD can be very good, but it can be very bad too :S

P.S: YMLAD has 10 seconds recharge. It's better that midliners have it in their bars, IMHO.
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Old Jun 18, 2009, 07:48 AM // 07:48   #84
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You people overestimate enchant removal against CA. There's 3 situations when you're running CA, one is there's no enchant punishment, we're cool here.

The second is that one or maybe two of the monsters in the mob has Shatter/Rip Enchantment or whatever. There's tons of groups like this, one I can think of the back of my head is Wardens. Kendel pretty much explained it. This kind of monsters will cast their enchant removal the moment they aggro something with enchants, so if you're just casting Critical Agility and then jumping in to aggro the entire mob all I can say is you're a bad player. I believe its pretty general knowledge, or at least what we usually do in my guild, to put Protective Spirit on the people who'll get the so called "alpha strike", be it the frontline or the caller. If there's enchant removal then its common sense to cover prot spirit with something that'll eat the enchant hate. And CA will be buried in this enchant puddle. Yes its true that when it renews itself, critical agility puts itself on top of the pile but by then the foe will have used up his enchant removal and should it recharge, it'll most likely target someone in your party who has less health and armor. Like a minion with Death Nova/Sorrow/etc.

Then we have the third situation, where the foes all have enough enchant removal to mantain your entire party clean. It's true in the Assassin's case, they find themselves disadvantage in this case. Which accounts for like 2-3% of all mobs but ok, assassins totally lose against warriors in melee DPS output there. In those cases instead I pick my caster set and go Deadly Arts, which not only brings great spike damage but also has plenty of room for utility so I really don't feel I'm missing out on my assassin at all. Just playing another role does it for me and well.

Another solution is to go /W and use Flurry which is what assassins did before CA appeared. I don't find having to go /W a drawback since you're going to use it for "Save yourselves!" anyways. The problem lies in that you're back to being a squishy 70AL target, which you'll need teamwork to help you with to make up for it.
Last edited by RadaArashi; Jun 18, 2009 at 08:02 AM // 08:02..
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Old Jun 18, 2009, 09:04 AM // 09:04   #85
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Originally Posted by faraaz View Post
Combat log was provided and summarily ignored by the pro warrior peeps (except Picuso )
WOW you can do such a good dps on a 60AL target XD ^__^ =P xoxo, why don't we try that in HM, where things actually matter? Keep pounding on MoD while I pounding mobs in HM, where it actually matters. I'll be doing 110 dps D-slash while your scythe (armor sensitive) goes down more than half the damage in HM. Yeah, we're that great.

Quote:
because apparently its a "gimmick"...although I fail to see how numbers lie. The problem is Warriors work on a war of attrition basis...they put out Save Yourselves, they KD stuff...they help control the battlefield.
Also blow shit up faster than you assassins can ever imagine.

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Assassins on the other hand, walk to a mob and demolish it in 1/3rd of the time Warriors would need, removing the need for the "uber utility lol gimmick" mentality.
Don't talk about "gimmick" when your whole profession is a gimmick itself. 1/3 of the time? I can see why you would say this, seeing as how your warrior does 30 dmg D-slash at best(LOL noooob XD). LMAO 5e on your sword inscrip LOL!. Radiant insignia on a warrior? LOL! Try and play this game before opening your mouth, son. You'd never be as good as me in this game so just get some experience so you could at least know what we're talking about. You seem clueless.

lolassassins.

Don't be full of yourselves assassins, know your place. Below the warriors.

Edit: What's with all the personal attacks and hate, (the posters few above). Can't we have a civilized discussion? Grow up kids.
Last edited by Forgotton200; Jun 18, 2009 at 09:44 AM // 09:44..
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Old Jun 18, 2009, 10:27 AM // 10:27   #86
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Im amazed on how all of a sudden theres so many ench removal and ALWAYS target the Sin ( not the Dnova minions , not any other enchanted char , no NEVER ) and when the CA is the last one or is renewed. Seriously , it happens on less than 5% of the game so please stop pointing it out , is not a valid argument.
Btw i agree with TryingToVanquish , im more used to go on LFury Sin than CritScythe , its very funny with SoH or OoP/OoV+barbs+MoP.

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Originally Posted by Forgotton200 View Post
WOW you can do such a good dps on a 60AL target XD ^__^ =P xoxo, why don't we try that in HM, where things actually matter? Keep pounding on MoD while I pounding mobs in HM, where it actually matters. I'll be doing 110 dps D-slash while your scythe (armor sensitive) goes down more than half the damage in HM. Yeah, we're that great.
Yeah because D-Slash is armor ignoring. How come sins can do more damage to a lvl 20 toon than a D-Slash W and all of a sudden with SAME BUILDS on HM Warrior wins ? did we miss something ? oh yeah, your imagination dude. Sht happens when FGJ goes down huh ?


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Originally Posted by Forgotton200 View Post
Also blow shit up faster than you assassins in my imagination.
Fixed.

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Originally Posted by Forgotton200 View Post
Don't talk about "gimmick" when your whole profession is a gimmick itself.
Hahaha see ? even sometimes you know whats real. I bet you are 1 of those "noob 123456 sin" name callers while dead on the ground.

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Originally Posted by Forgotton200 View Post
1/3 of the time? I can see why you would say this, seeing as how your warrior does 30 dmg D-slash at best(LOL noooob XD). LMAO 5e on your sword inscrip LOL!. Radiant insignia on a warrior? LOL! Try and play this game before opening your mouth, son. You'd never be as good as me in this game so just get some experience so you could at least know what we're talking about. You seem clueless.

lolassassins.
Whats with the attitude kiddo ?

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Originally Posted by Forgotton200 View Post

Don't be full of yourselves assassins, know your place. Below the warriors
I guess if you repeat that to yourself 100 times per day youll end up believing it.

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Originally Posted by Forgotton200 View Post
Edit: What's with all the personal attacks and hate, (the posters few above). Can't we have a civilized discussion? .
Got the Irony ? yeee .I dont know, you tell me kiddo. Go back to your cave .
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Old Jun 18, 2009, 03:21 PM // 15:21   #87
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Assassins better have higher damage potential, cause otherwise there is no point for them getting a slot.

It is quite easy to see that assassins can do more damage.

Of course they do that damage at the expense of certain other qualities that make a warrior excel as a front liner.

After having a warrior in your team, adding an assassin as second and probably has the 3rd melee isn't shocking.

But overall, a warrior is sturdier and cause more disruption (Earth shaker hammer is incomparable as an offense/defense machine) at the expense (comparing to an assassin) of less damage.

So clearly both have a place in a team - for solid front line presence, good damage and body blocking, you have the warrior; for extra damage at the expense of some reliability, you have the assassin.

I guess the Dervish is the one in the hardest position, only shinning when Avatar of Melandru or Avatar of Dwayna make a difference.
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Old Jun 18, 2009, 04:14 PM // 16:14   #88
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Not really.

Earth Shaker is able to mantain a full mob KDed (While GDW only KDs 1 target). And Brawling Headbutt is a KD almost every 3 seconds. (If you want to quarterknock a target).

GDW is better as damage buff, not as KD-system. % chance to KD can be very good, but it can be very bad too :S

P.S: YMLAD has 10 seconds recharge. It's better that midliners have it in their bars, IMHO.
Are you serious?

Ok if your running Earthshaker any comments related to utility, extra armour, dps are completely gone. Hammer in PvE is something to run for the fun of it because it sure as hell doesn't give enough advantages over Axe/Sword. You lose a Shield which voids any arguement about additional armour because the Shield is where most of it comes from.

As for KD'ing 1 target... i seriously hope your joking. Triple Chop, Cyclone Axe, Whirlwind Attack, 3 skills i use almost always on my Warrior, a serious advantage over Dagger that can only hit 1 and Scythe that hits foes very close to your target. Get yourself into a good spot you can KD an entire mob, this is the only serious advantage the Warrior has over the Assassin/Dervish when it comes to KDing (it made the HM Skale rampage in Blacktide hilarious). %age chance is never good, but its sufficiently high enough (~33% with an average rank) that a high attack rate WILL overcome it.

And yes YMLAD is better on Casters/Rangers.

Some nice flaming there Forgotton, did you have a point to make because i didn't see one.
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Old Jun 18, 2009, 07:58 PM // 19:58   #89
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Wtf has Vloxen got to do with the other 99.9% of the game? If you think bringing up the Slavers Summit mobs is going to give your arguement some weight theres something wrong with you.
So you admit that you cannot, as melee sin, go through vloxen HM, while a warrior can?

Look, Kendel,

my argument as stated was this: "warriors are more steady and reliable, and are better suited for very difficult areas and high end PvE." (I'm not saying that sins are bad or even that they are slower than wars.) I fully recognize that sins are very fast (and fun). My main is an assassin, believe it or not and MS/DB is probably the most enjoyable build for me. So you see, unlike you, I'm not a fanboy zealously devoted to your main. I am realistic. I understand the limitations of my profession.

The fact that 99% of the game is easy has nothing to do with what I've been saying. Any game today is going to be 99% easy and beatable with incredibly sub-par tactics. (If it's not, it won't hold a player base except for the most hardcore players). Vloxen is actually not a particularly difficult area. It's a fair point of comparison, and the results are completely valid to the point I've been making.

Quote:
Ok if your running Earthshaker any comments related to utility, extra armour, dps are completely gone. Hammer in PvE is something to run for the fun of it because it sure as hell doesn't give enough advantages over Axe/Sword. You lose a Shield which voids any arguement about additional armour because the Shield is where most of it comes from.
The way you say ES is "for fun" shows quite a bit of hubris. You do not have the experience to say that hammer warriors are "just for fun." An ES warrior is invaluable in certain team setups and SY! is not always enough. (Try DoA balanced with and without an ES war. It is a world of difference.) Even if it's not required, the fact that it's AoE shutdown and keeps everything balled up is going to be incredibly useful for any team setup.
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Old Jun 18, 2009, 08:38 PM // 20:38   #90
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Originally Posted by Kendel View Post
*snip*
I wasn't arguing about armor or w/e. I was only saying that ES is good to massive KD.

And I used Hammer a lot in HM, but not only because is funny. It helps my party too.

And, in your "exemple case", I prefer Earth Shaker over Triple Chop or Whirlwind Attack with Great Dwarf weapon, because I would be sure that all the mob would be KDed.

But that's not the point of this thread.
Last edited by Picuso; Jun 18, 2009 at 08:41 PM // 20:41..
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Old Jun 18, 2009, 10:18 PM // 22:18   #91
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Why can't other players accept the fsct that Warriors have the highest dps in them game as it has been discussed to death?
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Old Jun 18, 2009, 10:21 PM // 22:21   #92
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Btw i agree with TryingToVanquish , im more used to go on LFury Sin than CritScythe , its very funny with SoH or OoP/OoV+barbs+MoP.
Still with it, I wouldn't say they are better than warriors though. Too much factors to count in, this thread will be endless loop of flames.
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Old Jun 19, 2009, 12:01 AM // 00:01   #93
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So you admit that you cannot, as melee sin, go through vloxen HM, while a warrior can?
I've not done Vloxen in a while so why would i care?

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Look, Kendel,

my argument as stated was this: "warriors are more steady and reliable, and are better suited for very difficult areas and high end PvE." (I'm not saying that sins are bad or even that they are slower than wars.) I fully recognize that sins are very fast (and fun). My main is an assassin, believe it or not and MS/DB is probably the most enjoyable build for me. So you see, unlike you, I'm not a fanboy zealously devoted to your main. I am realistic. I understand the limitations of my profession.
Ah i understand now, pretty sure this thread is about DPS. You seem to have turned it into 'DPS while tanking an entire Slavers Mob'. Sorry but i really don't care what your DPS is while your playing tank. The fact is if you ran another Warrior who tanked and you were to DPS, your DPS sucks compared to running Sin along side a Tank. Warriors have better base armour, that has nothing to do with DPS in the slightest, your just warping your arguements to make it fit.

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The fact that 99% of the game is easy has nothing to do with what I've been saying. Any game today is going to be 99% easy and beatable with incredibly sub-par tactics. (If it's not, it won't hold a player base except for the most hardcore players). Vloxen is actually not a particularly difficult area. It's a fair point of comparison, and the results are completely valid to the point I've been making.
You define "sub-par tactics" as anything that doesn't involve a dedicated tank and you expect to believe your not full of crap?

Quote:
The way you say ES is "for fun" shows quite a bit of hubris. You do not have the experience to say that hammer warriors are "just for fun." An ES warrior is invaluable in certain team setups and SY! is not always enough. (Try DoA balanced with and without an ES war. It is a world of difference.) Even if it's not required, the fact that it's AoE shutdown and keeps everything balled up is going to be incredibly useful for any team setup.
What? Your dps is crap as a ES Hammer tank, you can't spam skills anywhere near as much as a Sword/Axe wielder can, this thread is about DPS, seriously what are you on about now. Your 'maintainable DPS' while running Earthshaker is absolutely meaningless because its your team thats doing the damage, not you, and not remotely relevant to a discussion about the best DPS in 1 of the worst designed elite areas in the game.

If your not running as a primary damage dealer in a regular team you have nothing to do with this thread.
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Old Jun 19, 2009, 12:57 AM // 00:57   #94
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There is just no concrete proof that in pve situations sin or warrior will do more dps than the other. This is because there is no combat log (NO I don't mean the master of dmg, I mean an in game combat log that shows the numbers within any instance). So I don't understand why some are saying that one or the other does more dps as if it was fact.

There are way too many factors that have been brought up, like team composition, enchant removal, conditions, hexes, mob composition. The best way to compare would be to test a variety of areas, but we have no way of measuring actual dps so meh.

In terms of damage potential in theory, I think sins are better because of high +dmg dagger skills or because of high crits with a scythe

@Earthshaker
Yeah, earthshaker shouldn't be brought up because it falls more on utility and as pointed out, not the point of the thread. BUT at least this earthshaker stuff is actually somehow related, unlike a certain troll's posts. Wonder why nothing has been done by mods about aforementioned troll...
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Old Jun 19, 2009, 01:33 AM // 01:33   #95
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Dear Assassins,

I truly believe that the teachers that you have encountered throughout your life have spent many moments in fear peering out the window as the short bus drops you off. You single handedly continue keep the red ink stock soaring.

Let me walk you through this. I know words are hard for you. I would love to help you but I am not sure if you are ready for language or if i should start on colors or numbers.

It has already been proven to death in multiple threads that warriors are the superior front line than that of a assassin. Do a search.

As I sit here and wiggle in anticipation of the the next intellectually devoid diarrhea posting to spew from your fingertips, I am curious if you assassins players have a brain?
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Old Jun 19, 2009, 05:51 AM // 05:51   #96
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I'm curious, which profession is better with a Scythe? That's what I'm mostly looking forward to playing, since I played Dervish for a year.
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Old Jun 19, 2009, 06:03 AM // 06:03   #97
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I'm curious, which profession is better with a Scythe? That's what I'm mostly looking forward to playing, since I played Dervish for a year.
Dervish can hit harder, especially if your using Lyssa, but you need to get very lucky with Criticals and over time you start to run low on energy and/or things need recasting. If Lyssa activates on several hits you've gained a hell of alot of damage. 1 very big advantage is they can spec Wild Blow for stance removal and a certified crit.

Sin only really has to maintain Aura of Holy Might during a fight and thanks to the high crit rate even though his max is lower he hits it far more often, to make matters worse he gains energy every crit so never runs out of energy for attack skills. Avatars are a better choice on Derv, Sin can use Wounding for DW, and of course theres the Crit skills that provide 33% IAS and 75% block, the former of which can be a problem to a Derv.

Its debatable and i really don't think theres a proper answer, Dervish can hit a hell of alot harder but the Sin just has a far better maintained dps.
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Old Jun 19, 2009, 06:05 AM // 06:05   #98
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I was really unclear in that post, sorry, I actually meant between Assassin and Warrior.
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Old Jun 19, 2009, 06:24 AM // 06:24   #99
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The people who like Warriors are going to say Warrior...people who like Assassin say Assassin...

Personally, trolls have taken over this thread and there is no point posting anymore :/
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Old Jun 19, 2009, 06:27 AM // 06:27   #100
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I was just curious, the thing that worries me the most about Enduring Scythe is that it has no IAS.
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